showing up

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Hi, everyone, and thanks for tuning in. I am

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feeling uncommonly mellow today. And that's a weird feeling. And

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I don't usually sit down to record when I'm feeling mellow,

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because I have to admit, I have a little fear that you won't be

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as interested, or you won't feel as engaged or you won't think

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that, that this is as worth your time, if I'm not kind of pitched

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up here and really excited and... and I am, I'm still

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excited. But intensives, we go through these phases of go and

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then these phases of stop and I've learned that if I try to

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fight that cycle, nothing good comes of it. Like the stuff I

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produce is just not great, because it's out of alignment of

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where I am. And, and so I'm trying an experiment today, and

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I'm bringing you along for the ride because I'm going to talk

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about stuff even though I'm not in that hyped up super energetic

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place right now. I figure the world is full of a lot of hyped

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up energy, and maybe it's okay for you to come with me on these

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more mellow moments, too. So this is going to be a slightly

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longer episode, we're not sticking to five minutes and and

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I'm going to allow you into this softer, more thoughtful space

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that I sometimes occupy. This feels like a more private space

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to me. And I think that's true for a lot of intensives that

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we're very comfortable kind of projecting that thing that often

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people think of as extraversion- I was just on a Facebook Live

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the other day with Grace Edison, who is fantastic. By the way, if

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you're looking for support with sales, you should absolutely get

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in touch with her. Also, if you're just looking for a

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fantastic person, you should just get in touch with her. She

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lives in works out of rural British Columbia. And, and she

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has the most interesting, interesting life. And I mean

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that in all the good and bad ways, but she has made something

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fabulous out of it. So anyway, I was on this, having this

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conversation with Grace, and we were talking about introversion

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and extraversion. And we were both really uncharacteristically

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mellow and, and she was talking about how how people are often

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like down on extroverts that are like telling extroverts, so they

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have to hush and step back, so that introverts can have more

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space in a space. And, and she kind of one of the questions she

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asked me was what I think of that? And is it her

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responsibility to make that space? And I said, Well, who are

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you in the space? Right? What is your leadership role in the

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space? Are you just a participant? I mean, just quote

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unquote, participation is very important. But are you a

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participant? Are you carrying some privilege vis a vis the

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other people in the room? Or are you the facilitator? Because

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each one of those occupying each one of those spaces requires a

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different thing from you, as a person in that role. And then I

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was thinking about, and I was thinking about how, how we get

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told, we're not supposed to be proud of ourselves, we're not

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supposed to, you know, pretty as pretty does and we shouldn't, we

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shouldn't claim space, we shouldn't be out and loud and

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proud and how, especially in queer spaces, and in a lot of

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people of color spaces, right, we've had to, we've had to teach

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ourselves and encourage each other to take up that space that

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we've been taught not to take up. I know that it's true in

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black and indigenous spaces. It's also true in South Asian

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spaces. I'm projecting that it's also true in other spaces that

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are occupied by other communities of color, and we see

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some of that on Tik Tok in places where people are able to

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occupy and define their own stage, their own way of sharing

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who they are and what they do. And thenI was thinking about my

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clothes, because I have gone through a long period of not

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really, not really wanting to call attention to myself,

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visually, for a variety of reasons. And recently, I've

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started to come out of that only as I started to have the

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capacity to make clothes for myself because part of what I'm

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discovering is that I didn't want to wear clothes, and call

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attention to myself in clothes, that I didn't feel comfortable

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in, that I didn't feel like we're representative of me,

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myself, my values, how I want to look, like none of that. And of

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course, being me, being an intensive, what I want is a

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little bit outside the norm. It's a little bit different from

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what everybody else wants.

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And in the case of my clothes, that means that I'm wearing a

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combination of 18th century menswear mostly that I'm making

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myself and I have been through a months and months long project--

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I'm really proud of myself actually. Because ordinarily

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when I end up stuck on a project, I end up shelving it

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and I walk away. And in this case, I, I have been working on

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this fitted Banyan. So there are two kinds of Banyans, fitted and

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unfitted, and I've been working on a fitted Banyon, which is

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basically just a glorified very elegant bathrobe, for months

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trying to get this pattern from what it was. I started with a

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pattern derived from an extant garment, in the LA County Museum

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of Art, all the way to a pattern that fits me, which looks

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tremendously different from the original pattern. I don't know

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if the original pattern was made for a boy, or if the original

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piece was made for a very small man, but it was certainly not

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made for somebody of my size, and I've had to scale a lot of

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it up in order to get it to where I need it to be. But

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scaling it up is not as simple as adding inches around the

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edges, you end up having to readjust the entire pattern,

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which is what I've been learning. So I've learned a lot.

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But the reason that I've persisted, I've actually

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persisted, I've stayed with it because it has novelty, because

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it's this giant like three dimensional jigsaw puzzle,

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because it uses parts of my brain that I don't get to use,

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in the same way in my work, but I do use those parts in my work,

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right? If you've ever worked with me, or if you're familiar

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with my work, you know, that I will take an existing system or

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an existing structure and restructure it to fit the people

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or the institution that's using it. I will, rather than saying,

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Well, you have to fit into this box, I'll say, well, let's build

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a different container. A box isn't even the right thing, we

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shouldn't even be using cardboard, we should be using

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wood, and it shouldn't be six sided, it should have, you know,

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17 sides, because that would accommodate you better. And next

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thing, you know, we have a completely different kind of

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containing structure, that fits the institution that needs it,

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that supports the institution that needs it, maybe we leave

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the top off so the institution can continue to grow. And I'm

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only able to do that, because I have finally, in my late 40s,

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come to a place where I'm willing to be out and proud not

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just about all of the identity pieces that we've had to be

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politically and socially in order to keep and advance human

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rights, but also out and proud about what I do and what goes on

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in my head. I had this really interesting experience when I

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was growing up that I kept having original ideas. And I

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kept trying to put them forth as legitimate thoughts. And people

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kept telling me, in academia, this is very common, people kept

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telling me over and over well, you have to come up with, you

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have to come up with a source this has to come from somewhere,

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you got to cite somebody, and I said, but there is no source, I

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came up with this. And they essentially told me that my

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ideas didn't count, that the only ideas that counted were

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ideas that came from external sources. And so if I couldn't

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find somebody else having already said it, then I couldn't

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put it in my paper, then I couldn't write it down anywhere

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then I couldn't build on it. And I found this both insulting and

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frustrating. And as I got older and found out exactly how old

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Emerson and Thoreau were when they wrote some of their most

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famous works and, and institutions that I was studying

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in really elevated Emerson and Thoreau and their peers and

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contemporaries-- as I started to realize that quite young white

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men had been allowed to have original thoughts for a very

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long time, and that we base a lot of our current thinking on

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their thinking from when they were like, in their late teens

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or early 20s, I became really clear that I was not going to be

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constrained by the limits of academia. And I actually think

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that's when the seeds of my resistance to academic

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structures started. So I continued on I mean, I have a

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graduate degree, but my graduate degree is a Master's of

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divinity, which is a practicing degree it's a it's a degree of

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praxis. In the same way that an MD is a degree of practice in

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the same way that

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a JD is a degree of practice, right? There are two different

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kinds of graduate degrees there degrees that are more

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theoretical and degrees that are really about how do you practice

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this thing you've learned; how do you make it into something

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tangible and tactical in the world? And I chose to go that

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route. I ended up with a master's degree because that's--

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it's not actually the last degree you can get anymore, you

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can get a Doctor of Ministry, but the master's degree is

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considered complete. It's it's the most degree you need to do

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ministry work in the world. And and so I got this master's

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degree, which is it's a very it's like an MSW. It's three

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years plus field work kind of situation. So by the time you

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are fully accredited and degreed, you've done four years

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of work. But because of the vagaries of our academic system,

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you only have a master's. But I decided to get a master's

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degree, that was not an academic degree. And I decided not to get

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say a ThD, which is a Doctorate of theology or a PhD,In my

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field, partially because I was interested in practical

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applications. I was interested in taking what we were doing and

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doing it in the world. I had no idea when I graduated with my M

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div, that I was going to leave the institutional church as the

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primary container of my work, and that I was going to go out

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into the world and instead, do this, do this very fusion kind

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of work, right, where I, where I take some of the principles of,

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you know, goodness in the world with the ideals of being good

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and being good for the world. And I bring them into the

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business context. And that kind of interdisciplinarity was very

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new when I was in an undergraduate and I was doing

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some similar things there. And I really shouldn't, I guess, be as

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surprised as I am, that I ended up where I am, doing what I do.

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But the only reason that I'm able to go out in the world and

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say this, this mashup of, of theory and philosophy and belief

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and, and world transformation is relevant in the business world.

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It's important in the business world, it's what we need to be

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doing in the business world, the only reason that I'm able to do

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that, and the only reason that I'm able to say, these things

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that I know I need are also things that I am noticing other

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people need. And when we provide those things for people like us

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what happens? We become better. All of us. Our institutions, us

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as individuals, the other people we're interacting with,

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everything gets better when we do this. So we're making the

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world a better place by making space for intensives. By

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carrying that intensiveness forward and by being out and

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loud and proud, as intensives. As intensives. The only way

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reason I can do that is because I am finally at this place where

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I'm willing to say this version of the world that I'm imagining

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has legitimacy. It deserves to take up space, it deserves to be

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on the page, it deserves to be in the front of the room. It

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deserves to be heard and seen and understood and perceived and

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grasped in all the ways that people interact with ideas.

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Because it's not just a theory that has no impact. It's... it's

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a seed, it's a seed of what could be if we all get together

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and do it. And we have to be able to be proud, we have to be

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able to be loud. And if I could go back and tell ninth grade me

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who wanted to do original research on the children's

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anti-Nazi resistance movement in Scandinavia, that me trying to

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chase down sources for a ninth grade paper would lead me

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eventually, to a place where I had the confidence and the

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audacity to write a book. Without an academic degree

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behind it. I have a degree but it's not a degree that that most

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people would consider qualifies me to write that book. But the

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book needed to be written and the ideas are valid and

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validated in the real world by people like you and me.

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And that's why that book had to exist, regardless of whether or

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not I had a PhD after my name. My father has a doctorate. And I

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thought for years that I couldn't legitimately occupy

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intellectual space without one. And now I know better. And now I

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know that there are lots of ways of knowing. That academia,

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upholds some of those ways of knowing but not all of them. And

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that we can validate ourselves and each other, we validate

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ourselves and each other. And that's why this work is

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important. Because everybody's way of being needs space. That

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doesn't mean that you get to harm other people with your way

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of being. But it does mean that there are spaces and needs to

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find the ways that we can all be in our own ways of being and

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bring what we have to bring and give what we have to give

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without being told that we're wrong. Without squishing

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ourselves and without harming others. This was a lot easier in

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the times and places before the internet. Because now, if I'm

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having a thought, I might sit down and write about it first,

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like privately, offline, in a journal somewhere. But I might

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just sit down and write a public post, or I might just sit down

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and record a podcast episode, and put my ideas right out there

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without, without doing a lot of digestion. And that's a

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legitimate way of telling stories, that's a legitimate way

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of transmitting ideas and knowledge. There's not

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necessarily a requirement to refine and refine and refine;

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refining is one method. But it's not the only method. And

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sometimes, when I refine my stuff too much, it loses its

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energy. And so I have to come to this space, willing to be a

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little bit less refined, really willing to carry forward a rough

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draft in order to carry forward the energy that comes with that

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rough draft. And the advantage of that, is that when I bring a

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rough draft, I'm more open to friendly amendments. I'm more

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open to other people's ideas. It's still soft, it's still

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forming, it doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to get

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out there. So it can be a seed. So it can be a pile of seeds. So

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it can be a handful of seeds scattered on the ground. And

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someone somewhere will pick up one of those seeds and make

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something of it. And that's what's most important. Of

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course, this is capitalism. So it's also important that I

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figure out how to get credit. I figure out how to occupy public

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space that I figure out how to hold my presence as one of the

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presences in the discourse as it proceeds, and to interact with

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the results of my own ideas, to engage to be engaged to be

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credited, and... and profit; to benefit from the results of my

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ideas. All of that is important. And one of the joys of this

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immediate publication social media world is that we can bring

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partially formed rough draft wet clay to the table. And then we

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can find out what happens when it's not just us in isolation.

Leela Sinha: 00:17:34

Sometimes we need isolation. Sometimes we need privacy.

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Sometimes we need cogitation, sometimes we need rumination,

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but we don't have to do that all the time. We can mix it, it's a

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tool, those are all tools. And we have access to all these

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different tools. When clergy used to write sermons that were

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supposed to be all day services. And I mean all day, or when they

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still do, probably, I don't know. But when they used to,

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they would just be writing alone, it was them, and a whole

Leela Sinha: 00:18:07

bunch of parchment and a quill pen, and a cup of tea and a

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break for lunch until they had like four or five hours worth of

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writing to read. And we don't have to do that anymore. Not

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only can we consult books, which they could consult whatever they

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had in their library, whatever their next door neighbor had in

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their library, whatever the church had in its library. But

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not only can we consult texts, we can also consult people,

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living people with living experience. And that's what

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makes it possible for us to be ourselves because we don't have

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to represent everybody. I can represent myself and other

Leela Sinha: 00:18:48

people like me, and the minute somebody feels like I don't

Leela Sinha: 00:18:52

represent them anymore, that's cool.

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That's all right. I don't have to represent everybody. We don't

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have one spokesperson for this and one spokesperson for that

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one representative of this and one representative of that. We

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have all these examples of all these kinds of ways of being and

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all these people and all these presences. But the only way that

Leela Sinha: 00:19:13

that amalgamation of experience is accurate is if a lot of us

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get out there and occupy space that we've been told we

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shouldn't occupy for some reason or other. Now I'm an introvert.

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I'm not an extrovert, but I am an intensive. And so often I get

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out there and I occupy a lot of space with really big ideas.

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That's part of my role in the world. That's not everybody's

Leela Sinha: 00:19:43

job. And that's okay, too. Some people are not doing that. Some

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people are, are collating, they're aggregating. They're

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weaving together and that's also important. If there's nothing

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that anybody learns from my work except that we can value

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everybody, we can value what all the people bring to the table,

Leela Sinha: 00:20:06

we can value the loud voices and the quiet voices, we can value

Leela Sinha: 00:20:09

the big movements and the small movements, we can value, the...

Leela Sinha: 00:20:13

the... cacophony and the silence. We can value, the in

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breath, and the outbreath. The tides rise and the tides fall,

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the salty and the sweet. And it's everything together that

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allows us to know ourselves well enough to move forward.

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When I'm not wearing 18th century clothes that I made

Leela Sinha: 00:20:49

myself, I'm wearing one of two things. Either I'm wearing

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saris, which I typically drape in ways that are slightly

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unconventional, to suit me, because they're incredibly

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flexible garments. Or, I'm wearing the default uniform that

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I fell back on, which is a black V neck t shirt, and this single

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pair of pandemic pants. I keep wanting to tell the story of

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getting so annoyed with pants that I stopped wearing any other

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pairs of pants, and how that led to my clothing being mostly hand

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sewn, or draped. But I do also have this fallback position of

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pandemic pants. At some point, I will actually put the whole

Leela Sinha: 00:21:45

story up on the YouTube. But the funny thing about having a

Leela Sinha: 00:21:51

neutral, a default, a thing I can fall back on is that it

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provides me a place to rest. It provides me a place to go when

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my energy isn't high. And when I'm not prepared to even be loud

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about myself in public, when I'm in that cogitation, that

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internal space. And I just, I just want to be in there. There

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may have been a time in this world where I could have worn

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these clothes quietly and gone about my day, and nobody would

Leela Sinha: 00:22:26

have noticed. But that was a number of hundreds of years ago.

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And that time was terrible in a lot of other ways. So let's not

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go back there. So when I need to get dressed, when I need to go

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out in public, when I need to present myself on social media

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even, I get to decide how I'm going to bring all of myself in

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that moment. Sometimes it's bright colors, flowing silks,

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exotic, imported, rich, delightful, sensual stuff.

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Sometimes it's... sometimes it's flamboyant in a completely

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different way. And I'm fully cognizant of the negative

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connotations of both flamboyant and exotic and, and I'm aware

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that that is part of what I'm carrying with me into the space.

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That some people will have those thoughts, those ideas, those

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overtones, those undertones when they see me in those clothes.

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And sometimes, that's not what I want. Sometimes I want to be

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absolutely unremarkable. Sometimes I want the words or

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the art that I'm making to be front and center. The only thing

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that people notice. And if that's what I want, then I put

Leela Sinha: 00:24:04

ont a black V neck t shirt and a pair of pandemic pants. So I'm

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not saying that you have to go out there and be shiny all the

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time. But I am also saying that you do not have to not. No

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matter what anybody has told you.