Interview: Doctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar

Leela Sinha: 00:01

Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in. Welcome back to Power Pivot. This is one of our bonus episodes, where I get to interview someone fabulous about their relationship to power and systems of authority and business and the world and making the world a better place. Today's guest is Doctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar, who is a an activist and a world change maker and came out of academia, which is one of the places that it's hardest to come out of. So I'm really excited to get to talk with her today.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 00:40

Thank you so much.

Leela Sinha: 00:41

Welcome. Thank you for being here. So I'm going to start rather than trying to summarize your life and your journey, I'm going to start by asking you to introduce yourself to our listeners. And tell us a little bit about who you are, what you're doing now and how you got here. But I know we have some really juicy conversations to have about power. So feel free to make it summarized if you want to.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 01:03

Absolutely. Okay, so yes, like you said, my name is Doctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar, I am an ex-astrophysicist, I defended my PhD in 2016. And I was all set to become a professor of astrophysics. That was my life's dream. But the situation that I was in and the the environment and the culture of my scientific training was so toxic that I decided to leave academia after my PhD, and not pursue that dream of becoming a professor. And instead, I wanted to use my experience to change the culture of academia, and the culture of STEM specifically, into a radically nourishing space for marginalized people.

Leela Sinha: 01:55

No, no big deal, just a little goal... I'm so pleased to hear you talking about this, because I have so many friends who have come through or most of the way through partway through academia, and then run into some of the very same issues. And it's been so hard on them, it's been so damaging for them. And I think the world has really lost out on a lot of really powerful academic influence, because academia wasn't a space that was able to absorb people who weren't already part of the mainstream. So why don't you talk to us a little bit about about your, your transition out of that and into what you're doing now?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 02:43

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So when I was in academia, right, I had so many experiences with power that- it's kind of difficult to describe to folks who are not in the ivory tower, right? Because in higher education, it- I like to say to people that there is discrimination, there's oppressive systems everywhere in every industry, right? And academia is no exception. The only difference is that in academia, there's no HR. So there isn't an oversight of what is happening to people. And so they are getting exploited. They're getting exploited to a degree that is different than you would see laborers get exploited- for instance, in the farming industry, or things like that, the secondary labor market- but still, these insidious things are happening to the point where black and brown people, disabled people, queer people are leaving STEM, are leaving academia by the droves. And so when I experienced that, I had no idea what was happening to me. I was told by the culture and and both indirectly and directly, that I did not belong there. Right, I was told that I wasn't good enough to be there, that I wasn't smart enough. That my background wasn't rigorous enough to, to be there. To be become an astrophysicist. Right? And I saw this happening to me, and I thought, okay, they, they must be right. They must be right about me. And it wasn't until I had, you know, internalized all of these values, and decided to change my career. And I started to take sociology classes and Gender Studies and race and ethnic relations classes, that I started to realize that what was happening to me was actually, not because of me, but it was part of this larger phenomenon in our society, right. Because of the patriarchy, because of homophobia, sexism, you know, xenophobia. And so I was at the intersection of many of these identities, and therefore I was experiencing this pressure, either to assimilate to the environment that I was in, or to leave. And I saw this happen not to just myself, but to other people. I have seen a large number of especially black and brown women be pushed out of their dream careers because of this culture that we have in academia. That is very hegemonic, and that centers, you know, cis, heterosexual, able bodied white men. And to a certain extent, now, white women. But doesn't create a space for people of marginalized identities, especially multiply marginalized folx. And so when I left I,

Leela Sinha: 05:57

can I, can I interrupt you for just a second?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 06:00

please?

Leela Sinha: 06:01

Because I want to ask you, what was that like for you to kind of look up and realize- I remember my process of realizing that it maybe wasn't just me. And this was not even in academia, this was in another field. But that but the situation was the same. Where I had been told that I wasn't qualified, that I wasn't good enough.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 06:22

Right.

Leela Sinha: 06:22

And I slowly realized that it wasn't that I wasn't good enough. So what was that like for you to have that moment of like, or that several moments probably of, of looking around and realizing that? Oh, look, it's not just me.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 06:39

Wow. Well, it was devastating. It was devastating, because by the time I realized that it wasn't me, I was already on my way out. And I had experienced so much damage, psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, and even physically, right- my health, my physical health had declined. I developed a few disabilities, while I was going through this experience, that it was too late for me. So I was already on my way out the door, I was like, I cannot do this anymore. And when it was, quote, unquote, "my fault," I could at least have some semblance of control that I tried, and it didn't work out and whatever. But to realize that I didn't, I will say, again, quote, unquote, "make it" to my dream career. The career that I had worked so hard- out of poverty out of, as an immigrant, as, you know, first generation student- so hard to attain; I couldn't attain it, not because of my lack of potential, but because other people had squandered it.

Leela Sinha: 07:55

Yeah. Yeah. And because, because other people, in some ways had actively worked against your success.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 08:05

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I would say, like, at- now, in retrospect, you know, that was eight years ago. So in retrospect, I can see how there were definitely individuals actively working against my success. And also there are systems that are in place, that where there are just barriers for people like me, and people even less privileged than I am, for sure. So yeah, it was it was, it was really devastating. I, you know, I went through a lot of mental health crises after, after leaving graduate school. I had to do deep trauma therapy, I did a modality of therapy called EMDR, which, if the listeners are not familiar with is one of the only known treatments, effective treatments for PTSD. Which I already have from childhood experiences. But the experience I had in grad school was traumatic to the extent that I had to process it in deep trauma therapy. So just to give you a, a sort of gauge for how bad it was, you know.

Leela Sinha: 09:13

Yeah. And, and there's so little acknowledgement of that, that that this kind of systemic barrier, systemic- The image I always get is of being up to your hips in mudflats. Like the barrier is this thing that feels like it's quicksand, almost. Like it's sucking you down. And and there's so little acknowledgement of how bad it is, and how much like long range damage it does to people. And yet, what do we want? Do we want to be discouraging people from entering academia? So that it stays like it is? no. So that's where I assume your current work comes in?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 09:51

Yeah, actually, that's such a great point because that's something- that's a conversation that I've had many times with people. You know, so when I talk about my experience, they'll say "well you know, don't don't tell students about what you experienced, because you might discourage them" you know. When, especially when we're talking about black and brown students, indigenous students, they'll say, "you know, you'll discourage them." And for me, it's not a matter of discouragement. It's a matter of informed consent. Right. So a lot of people treat graduate students- even undergraduate students- as children. Like I've literally heard professors say, "kids," when they're referring to students. Which really robs them of their agency as fully realized human beings; they're adults, right? They're making decisions for their lives. And, and when you go into a Ph D program, for those of us who are not familiar, you're basically going, at least in the STEM fields, usually what you do is you do a bachelor's degree. And then you go straight into a Ph. D, program. First two years classes. And after you finish your classes and some requirements, you're you're able to get a Masters on your way to getting the PhD. Usually, there's an exam, a qualifier exam, that can allow you to continue or prevent you from continuing your PhD. And then when you finish writing your dissertation, you do research, then you're granted the PhD. So it's inclusive, and people say, average of five years, I would say, minimum five years of your life. So when I talk about this, I'm like, I was 22. I was there from when I was 22, until I was 29. So I was there for about six and a half years. And that's average, I would say six years is about average for a PhD. So it's a long time. It's a long time, it's your youth, that you are giving up, in a way, to do this degree. And for me, it was something that I was doing it because that's how you become a professor. That's how you get to that place.

Leela Sinha: 11:53

Right? So let's pivot a little bit and talk about power. Because I know that that is a question that I've, I've opened in a bunch of different ways, because I think it's so important for us to name it. And for us to talk deliberately and explicitly about it. Instead of having all this implied power and hidden power structures. And then we don't talk about power, we think that power is terrible. I know a lot of people who think that power is just awful, and nobody should have it. And and then, you know, I've worked with some clients, especially white men, who will tell me "oh, well, you know, I've become much more aware and progressive, I'm just not gonna- I'm gonna give away my power. I'm gonna..." And I'm like, "no, no, no, no, if you're more progressive, we need you using your power." Effectively. Like, maybe you're just going to hand off the mic. But we still need you to use your power, activate your power, so that you can get the mic so that you can give it to somebody else. And, and for someone like you who comes through this system, and then has to move out of it for your own health, and then moves back into conversation with it: talk to me about power. Talk to me about your power.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 13:06

Well, I feel like I have a very complicated relationship to power. I did even before I came into graduate school. I didn't realize it at the time, because I wasn't as socially conscious as I am now. But there were many systems of power at play throughout my life, and things that I couldn't control, you know, related to my gender, my ethnicity, my immigration status, my my sexuality- that came sort of later in life. But I already entered graduate school with a sense, based on the the culture of coming up through STEM, that I should be grateful to be there. Right. It wasn't that I earned my place there, or that I had worked hard. But that I was being given something that I didn't deserve. And made to feel like that meant that I didn't have any power. And for a long time, when I was in my graduate program, I did feel that way. I felt that... I felt that, you know, when people with more power would use their power against me, right. And one instance, when I was an undergraduate, and I attended my first conference, I was sexually harassed by a professor who was a friend of my internship advisor at the time. And so there's so many instances like this. But also then people using their power to kind of block me from receiving, you know, certain awards and things like that. So, after that experience,

Leela Sinha: 14:48

right.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 14:49

I really didn't want anything to do with with power, both from my childhood experiences and my experience in grad school. To me, I think the unconscious... The unconscious narrative in my mind was that when you have power, you abuse it. People who have power abuse it. Power equals abuse. And I had been on the-

Leela Sinha: 15:15

right. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 15:19

Right. And I was on the end of powerlessness for such a long time that I really didn't want anything to do with having power.

Leela Sinha: 15:30

How was power related to your identity at that time?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 15:34

Hmm. That's a great question. So I definitely felt- you know, when you are coming into your consciousness, your social consciousness. And as you're learning and unlearning and unpacking, right. At first, there's this realization, right, this big sort of unraveling. And what can happen is, you're like, Oh, my God, like, I didn't realize that having these identities, these different identities, means that I have less power. There are some ways in which I was aware and other ways in which I wasn't. And it was a huge shift for me. And when I started my company, I was of the mindset that I came from a place of power abuse, and I didn't want- I wanted to create an organization, a space, where that didn't happen, where that didn't exist. And that meant that I couldn't have power, I guess, in my narrative back then. And so when I started- at first I worked on my own, you know, I was- I had a startup, I was just by myself doing my consulting, doing trainings, all these things by myself. But eventually, I started hiring people. And when I did, I was like, I don't- I want the space to feel so different from the places that I've come from. And so I really distanced myself from power. I, you know, in the team that I had we, I had this running joke that I didn't have the real power. The real power was with my COO, who would sign the checks, right. And so I would be like, I don't really run this company, she does. And because I wanted- I felt so uncomfortable with the idea of having power. Because in my mind, that means that I would be an abuser, that I didn't, I didn't want anything to do with it. And so I started my company, thinking, this is a collective and everyone has a voice, and we all vote on things. And, and that worked while we were very small, and we only had a handful of people. And then as we grew, and more people got added to the team, and the dynamics became more complex. That wasn't really possible anymore. And so a lot of things happened, that made the dynamics within the company implode. Especially because- I think, in retrospect, this is something that happened about two years ago, now. Because I was so averse to power, and I so did not want to be associated with power. I just ignored it. I just pretended it didn't exist. And it's funny, because I'm out here teaching people about their privilege, and recognizing their privilege and their power, and owning it and being like, Hey, if you have- For example, if you're white, you have so many doors that you can open for other people, like you can use that power to your advantage, like, But denying that you have it only harms other people more. And it was such a paradox, because I didn't realize that I was doing the same thing. In terms of my position at the company, the fact that I had this status that was different from the people that I employed.

Leela Sinha: 19:00

Well, I was gonna ask you how that affected your company, but you've told us. So I'm now curious, how did your identity have to change in order for your approach to power to change?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 19:15

Yeah, so at that time, we were having a lot of interpersonal issues at the company. Because again, my position in this was, or my role in this was, that I wasn't- I was eschewing the power that I had, I was denying that it existed. And so eventually- I also want to note that like, because I didn't want to have power over anyone, I wanted to be friends with everyone. Right? And so I had very poor boundaries between work and personal. And I hired my friends and the people that I hired I became friends with and there weren't a lot of boundaries at the time. And at the time, I didn't understand that that could be detrimental. That that could be more harmful to people than actually having power over someone, right? So there were all these interpersonal dynamics that were crumbling, because there because of a lack of boundaries and my refusal to to accept this power. And then my team took me to task and was like, hey, there's something that's not working here, either we are a collective, and we need to start acting like a collective; or we need to admit that we're not a collective, and start working from there. Because there was a disconnect between what we were saying, which is we are, we're a community, we work at a community level, everyone's at the same level. But the actions were not matching the words, and that's very painful, you know. So when that happened, I was like, I have these two choices. And there's- at the time, and you know, in my head, there's this false dichotomy between good and bad. Power is bad, community is good. Being a collective is good. And so I'm like, okay, then that, I guess what that means is that I have to work toward being more of a collective; our company being more of a collective. And so eschewing power even more, right. And then after maybe like six months of this, I finally- there were some situations in my company that came to a head that forced me to take the reins, and put a stop to a lot of what was going on. And, and be like, "okay, like, this isn't working. And I have to take charge, I have to take charge." And in that time, I think that it was very painful for everybody involved, because I just didn't have- I didn't have that practice of like, standing in my power, admitting the power that I had, and using that power for good. And I think it was very shocking when I finally did say, okay, like, I am the CEO, and I do have to have certain rules and boundaries and things like that, right. And it really was, it was just so painful. It was so painful. I know that it caused a lot of harm to others, and also to myself, right, because I had to deal with the fallout of that. And I lost a lot of community. And there was just a lot of fracture within the company. And we had to scale down. So it's, it's, it's tough. I, when I look back on it, I'm like, Damn, that was a dark time. You know. Because it forced me at like- it was like, everything was telling me like Nicole, like, you have to assume this position of power that you've put yourself in. And everything inside me was resisting it. And in the end, it still happened anyway, you know, just in a way that was way more dramatic, I think, than if I had simply accepted my position, you know.

Leela Sinha: 23:19

So what changed inside you? In that process?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 23:26

Everything. It was a total paradigm shift. And it was extremely painful. I will say I'm very- so I've been in therapy for like, Jesus, how long has it been? Twelve years, I think maybe longer. Since 2012, however long that is. I can't do- I'm a scientist, I can't do math in my head. So

Leela Sinha: 23:47

Twelve years, because it's 2024.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 23:49

Right? Okay, cool. So, I knew during that time, I'm like, I have to do some deep introspection. I have to figure out what's happening within me, that is the block, right? Because, of course, there are other players that are other people here. But in my journey and my position as a leader, really, the only thing that matters is like what is happening within myself that is stopping me from being able to move forward. Right. And so being- I don't want to say that I was thrust into this power that like I didn't want, because that almost feels like a victim narrative. And I definitely had that at the time. I very much identified with my own victimization, because of all of the ways that power had been used against me. And I didn't want to let that go. Like I didn't know this at the time. I wasn't conscious of this. It took me a long time to come to this conclusion. But I didn't want to let that go because it was scary. It's scary. I didn't know what it meant to not be powerless. And I was very afraid of that. And so everything had to change. Everything. And I remember talking to my therapist at that time, and I was like, I just don't see a way out of this, that doesn't make me the villain. And I was terrified of being the villain. And she was like, I think it's time for you to embrace that part of you. Because it's not actually villain-like, but it's going to feel that way. Because of what you have to do. You have to put your foot down, you have to make rules, you have to, like, distance- create some distance between your professional persona and your personal life. And you have to do that, and it's going to hurt. And it's going to- yeah, you might be the villain in other people's minds, and even in your mind. But that has to be embraced in order for this- for you to be able to make it out of here alive. You know. So, I, that's what I started doing. I started to, I was working with an ancestral coach at the time, and they were advising me, you know, like, think about, like, the villains from your favorite movies. You know, I thought about Ursula from The Little Mermaid, and they were like, just imagine yourself, like- I had always clung to this sort of goodness, I wanted to be good, right? And it was like, No, you have to embrace the whole, right? That there are light, light sides and dark sides. And just embracing the light parts of myself hadn't worked. It I had actually hurt people even more, because I was so afraid of these quote unquote, "darker parts" that were more assertive and more... you know? So I had to, I had to embrace. I had to embrace that.

Leela Sinha: 26:54

I feel like there's a whole piece in here about patriarchy, and what it tells us good girls do.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 27:02

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, no, so much. It's like not even just patriarchy. It's patriarchy. It's machismo. The fact that I'm an immigrant and how immigrants are supposed to be, right. When you grow up as an immigrant. And your, your immigration status is precarious. Right. And literally, I mean, I grew up as with a lot of privilege, I was a permanent resident. But if I- as a permanent resident, if you commit a felony, you can be deported. Right? So there is so much attached to this goodness archetype that has to do with sexism, it has to do with immigration. It has to do with ethnicity, too. Because also like, the culture that I grew up in, is very, it's sexist, but it's in its own sort of way. Religion is tied to this, right? So colonization brought, you know, Catholicism to my home country, and I grew up steeped in it. And so there is this element of like, you have to be good as like a, as a Latina, as a as a woman, as as an immigrant. Like, there's so many levels to this for sure.

Leela Sinha: 28:14

So what did it mean for you? To reject all of that? That's a huge- that's like, that's not just one little thing that's like everything.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 28:24

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 28:26

What do- what kind of supports did you have? What kinds of challenges did you face? What did it what did it affect in your community life? I'm not an immigrant, but my father is, so I have a little, a little window into that, but not- and not the same culture. So I'm curious.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 28:45

Yeah, no, that's very valid. I felt extremely alone. Because the narrative in my unconscious was that either I could have community or I could have power. And being in a situation

Leela Sinha: 29:11

Wow. I just- we just need need to sit with that for a minute. Either I could have community or I could have power. Like the weight of that, especially for someone coming from a more community oriented culture than the one here

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 29:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 29:41

You have to choose you can have people or you can have agency but you can't have both.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 29:46

Right. Thank you. Yeah, because that was really hard. I'm not gonna lie like, yeah, it was very, very isolating. Because suddenly, when I was in this position where I had to, like, I was literally up against the wall. I had to take the reins, I had to take control of my company and of the things that were happening and set some rules and everything. It felt like I was totally alone, because you know, the team. And they experienced so much pain, like for sure, this was such a painful process for everybody. And they also had each other, they could commiserate about what was happening. But I didn't have anyone. I didn't feel like I had anyone within my team that- because like, by definition, right, I'm the boss, now I'm taking stepping into this role. And now there is no one in this space, who is at, you know, at my level, who can like, who can maybe understand what I'm going through, as the leader. As someone who has all of this on their shoulders. Somebody might be able to maybe have empathy or like, try to understand, but I'm like, unless you've been in that position before, it's very- like having people's livelihood on your hands. And just the full weight and responsibility of that alone. And the shame, the shame, that I felt. Because I've- at the time, I believed that if I had just- if I had just had these boundaries in place, if I had just known, if I had just taken up that power, if I had just admitted it and everything, then I wouldn't be going through this intense pain. I lost so much community during that time. And I also- it was this belief too, internally that like, now I had power, so I'm alone. And for about a year and a half, I isolated myself, I didn't see community, I didn't make friends. I stayed- there were very, very few people in my life that I would spend time with. I have family in Atlanta where I live. And I have, you know, I have my partner and a very close friend. And that's it. I didn't allow myself to form community, because I had this intense shame. And I believed that I didn't deserve to be in community with people because of how much I had harmed the people in my community. And I also was like, you know, in this sort of like leadership position and having to pick up the pieces. Now I have this company, there's two people, three people working in this company, it used to be eleven. And having to do all of that, while feeling like I didn't deserve to be in community with others. And it took a long, long time, it took a lot of introspection, a lot of therapy, for me to come to the- it was actually only very recently that I came to the realization that, as much power as I had in that situation, it wasn't all on me. Because my instinct was to take 100% of the responsibility. And the thing is, what I understand now is that when you have power, you have more responsibility to create a space where people feel safer to bring you their grievances to speak up, to stand in their power. But it cannot be 100%. I can only do so much. Right? There's only so much that I can do to create a space where that is the case, I cannot force people to come to me, I cannot force them to speak up. I cannot force them to advocate for themselves. And so I've kind of come full circle, but it's taken me a long, long time.

Leela Sinha: 34:19

Yeah, yeah. There's so much going on in my head right now. So- because I think the story that you just told of discovering that you were doing a lot of harm; discovering that, presumably the people that you were working with, felt that you were doing a lot of harm.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 34:42

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 34:43

And then withdrawing from community, like what? -And then feeling like you didn't deserve to be in community. You didn't deserve to be any of these things. And yet you still had to keep going. You still had to keep picking up the pieces but because that's the role you were in. Like, that's the terror, I think of so many marginalized people who are dancing with the possibility of being in charge of something; that absolute fear and and unhealth- and this is going to be controversial, and maybe people will come for me about it- but the unhealth of most marginalized communities such that they do believe that it is all on the person in charge. Like... the people who are working in any institution, we kind of- we have a culture in marginalized spaces of training ourselves to believe that the problem is the power structure, the person in charge the... that person over there. And not to own our own power, and our own piece of the responsibility for that that's ours.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 36:00

I mean, I think we're socialized that way-

Leela Sinha: 36:01

And if we're gonna be in charge of something, we're like, crap. Yes, we are. We're socialized that way, and we support each other in that socialization. And that's one of the reasons that I started this podcast.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 36:11

Yeah, for sure. No, I think it's like, it's a bit of both right. So I feel like I feel very strongly that this is something- for instance, you know, I grew up very religious. Actually, my family is evangelical and fundamental. I don't practice anymore, but that's what I grew up in. And I have a very strong sense of how poor people of every race can be manipulated, and told that, you know- when one of the main tenets of a religion is humility, poverty, you know, selflessness,

Leela Sinha: 36:52

submission,

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 36:54

submission, right, then it's very easy to look at someone in authority and say, "That person has the right to have all of this." You know what I mean? And so this is something that we are taught, for certain. And it's something that we, it's our responsibility to unlearn. And the system is very weighty. And very, very, I mean, it's very powerful. There are certain things that are within our power, for sure. But of course, the system is designed for us never to find that out. You know. And if you if you become aware of it- it's like I was saying, this journey, I am more aware now than I was when I first started my company, in 2018. But the awareness is excruciating. It's like the matrix, right? Like you, you, you have a choice, you can be ignorant and live this life and play the game and have comforts and stake and, you know- or you can choose to be aware, and be like, Damn, it's really fucked up out here. You know what I mean? And so I feel like the system definitely pushes us in the direction of like, there's nothing to see here. And it is extremely difficult systemically for us to break out of that. But also, even going through that process is very, very, very painful. Because it's like, what it feels like to me. It's like, it's like: I have been my whole life; I've been living on an island, right? And I'm on solid ground. I know how to make. I know how to survive here. I made my home here. And then you're telling me to look around, and all of a sudden, I'm- you're telling me: Actually, you're standing on a raft in the middle of the ocean. There's everything that you thought was true is a lie. It was an illusion. Now what? There's no foundation left, there's no ground to stand on. What do you do with that? There's- it's a lot of grief.

Leela Sinha: 39:15

Yeah. And what would it have meant to you to have community in that moment? Have other people going through the same process with you?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 39:24

Yeah. So I recent- this is like literally last week. I came to this other big breakthrough realization that my friend Leah helped me through because... she was talking to me about structure versus content. And I said, "What do you mean I don't really understand what you mean?" And she goes, "Okay, so there's this theory that like, you know, basically if you imagine like an old timey like tent, you have to have like, you know, let's say sticks or something; something to create the scaffolding, the infrastructure. And then you drape like a canvas over it. And the canvas is the content. And it takes the shape of whatever the structure is, right?" So when I was talking to her about some, you know, some recent events that have been bringing up these feelings again for me. And I told her about how alone I felt. And she said, it's interesting, because I think, you know, when you didn't have power, you felt alone. And when you did have power, you also felt alone. And so maybe the structure is aloneness. At some point, maybe when you were very young, you learned that you were "alone," quote, unquote. That you felt that you were, believed that you were alone. That there was no one here for you. You were alone in this world. And then, every event in your life has draped over that structure, and validated the aloneness. Right? And so it seems like it's not possible for you to if you, if you are alone, if you don't have power, and if you have power, then maybe the aloneness is an illusion. Maybe you were, you know, never actually alone. And it just feels that way, because that was a structure that was there. And I, when she said this to me, I didn't know what to do. I mean, I was like, emotionally, mentally, it's like, the bottom fell out of everything. Because I was like, Oh, my God, if that's true, that means that I actually, I have never been alone. That means that when I was going through this with my company two years ago, I wasn't alone. And when I look around, I wasn't I did have a support system. But the me back then believed that they were alone. Right, completely alone. And it's, it was so devastating, it was so devastating. And then I had to sort of think, like, you know, I started crying, and my friend was like, you know, what is it? And I said, Well, if I'm not alone, then who am I? Who am I? You know, I don't know how to be a human without this deep, deep aloneness. Because if I have never been alone, and the and the aloneness was an illusion this entire time, then it stands to reason that I never will be alone. No matter what I do, no matter what actions I take, that means I will never be alone. And I, the person that I am right now, who is realizing this for the first time in my almost 37 years. I have no idea what to do with that. I have to construct a brand new identity. Where, because and here's the thing, I don't know if I'm being clear about this, but it was such a, I was so mind blown. Because what it meant is that the community was always there. I just wasn't letting it in to myself. Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 43:18

That makes me wonder what else we don't allow ourselves to have?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 43:23

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 43:26

Especially in the constructs of leadership and power that we inherit from the colonialist systems, we move through.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 43:38

Yes, because in the colonial white supremacist system, there is no community. There's only power, but there's no community. But that doesn't mean that we have to abide by that model. We can create a new model. So in a way, it's exciting. But it's also terrifying. Because what does that look like without a blueprint? You know?

Leela Sinha: 44:12

what if we don't have to be coerced into collective movement? Because that's what that's what white colonialist power structures do is they put somebody in charge. And then they say, okay, this person makes the rules and everybody has to follow the rules, and there are like punishments or consequences if those rules aren't followed. And that's how we get collective movement when there's not community. or fear, you know, if there's a lion chasing us, well, I'll run collectively, because we're scared. But, but But what would it be like? What what is it like for us to get collective movement without coercion?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 44:57

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 44:59

And what does it like to be a leader in that system?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 45:02

right? Because because, you know, in the capitalist individualist system that we have, the whole point is isolation. Because people who are isolated are more easily controlled. And community is everything. And I've been teaching this for years, that's the gag, is I've been teaching this for years. And I've. But something that I realized the other day is like, I realized that my narrative, my belief system, this whole time has beenL community is something that I get to serve, not something that I get to be a part of. I've been doing all of these things for the community, but I don't get to be part of that community. And now my task is to craft an identity, a new person, who does allow community in, who does allow myself to both have power and also allow myself to be in community with others. It's very scary.

Leela Sinha: 46:14

What does the symbiosis between power and community look like?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 46:20

You tell me, please let me know, you know.

Leela Sinha: 46:27

I mean, I think that's the question that so many of us are holding right now, not just holding still with, but like, moving through moving around. Because because we we recognize, you know, I, I tell the story periodically, of, there was a magazine and one of my friends wanted to just create this magazine. And so that person collected like 12 of us who were variously aware of the issues and the things that magazine would be dealing with, and put got us all together and said, Hey, are you willing to be on an editorial board together? And we all said yes. And then they just started, you know, recruiting writers and creators to submit things for the magazine's content and farming them out to us so that we can edit them. And then like an issue and a half, and they were like, I didn't ask you do you want to be like voting on all the decisions? And we were like, no, no, no, no, we do not wish to vote on any of the decisions. We are busy people with busy lives, you have a vision, we are happy to be part of your vision, just send us the stuff to evaluate. And we will decide what goes in the next issue. And, and it was that moment that I realized that like we have this ideal of democracy or collective or other kinds of like, every voice has a vote kinds of decision making. But really, if you have a mutually trusting relationship with your leader, sometimes the best way to move forward with a project is just to have the leader make the leader decisions and other people make other decisions. Like I think that the the, there's something and of course, we know that we shouldn't be voting on the rights of minorities, right? Like, there's there's something about there's something about democracy that's driven by fear, which makes sense because the American democratic system came out of fear and problems with the with the royalty back in Europe like, and what would it be like to not have a fear-based leadership system, but still be able to say- delegate, essentially, collectively delegate to someone and be like, we want you to hold the vision, we want you to move us forward. We don't want to be trying to vote on the color of the carpet, it's not necessary. It's funny that you say that, because I do think that like, what I realized out of this whole situation was that like, as much as I want to have a collective and that's my dream, one day of like, figuring out, okay, how do you do that? In a capitalist system, there are things that are just the reality of capitalism, like we all live under these rules. I didn't invent them, and I won't make them go away. Right? So I have to, in some way abide by those rules. I can have a culture that's different within my company than other places. But there are certain things that are still going to apply. But there is a community called the Zapatistas, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but they are, I've heard of them but I'm not closely familiar.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 49:32

Yeah, so they inspire a lot of my work. They are an indigenous collective based out of Chiapas, Mexico. And they had a revolution a few decades ago, and they live completely independently of the Mexican government. They have their own education, system, economy, etc. And they have all of these principles that they live by, that are called the Zapatista principles, hundreds of principles, but one of them is Mandar Obedeciendo, which means "lead by obeying," and they have a Juntas de Buen Gobierno, a council of good government, and everyone in the community, at some point serves on that council. And when you are in the council, your job is to go to the people and ask them, what do they need, and then make it happen. Right. But everyone in the community is part of that council. And that's lovely. And I, I want to live my life by these principles. And but something that I didn't come to terms with until after all of this happened is that the Zapatistas are not in a capitalist system. They are in a collective society, they have infrastructure, they have their own everything, right. And so they can do those things. And we can adapt some of these principles, you know, in our own organizations in our lives. But under capitalism, it's never going to be fully possible for us to have that same society. I mean, they kicked the Mexican government out of their ancestral lands. And so they were able to do this. But it is going to look different, that and that was a hard pill for me to swallow, but it is going to look different for my organization, because I am fully entrenched in this capitalist society, where I have to pay to live, and I have to produce labor, you know, and that is not changing anytime soon.

Leela Sinha: 51:37

Yeah, I think that that tension is natural and ongoing, precisely because if we want to do things in this world, we have to be alive. And if we want to be alive, we have to eat and have to have shelter, and our basic needs aren't going to get met if we don't do something to interact with capitalism. I mean, even the Shakers, if we look back, you know, at some of the more westernized structures, even the Shakers had to come up with ways of interacting with the rest of the world so that they could have the resources they needed to have an essentially collectivist existence inside there, inside their, their own world inside their own compound. So I don't think there are easy answers. But I do think that it's really interesting to think about how our how our relationship to power needs to be- like it needs to be okay to have power.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 52:41

Yeah, it does. I agree. I'm working toward that within myself, you know, and I'm hopeful that these different breakthroughs and these experiences that I've had are leading me there. And because ultimately, that's what I want, I want to- ideologically right- I want to have power, so that I can make changes that would benefit people who are marginalized. It takes power to do that.

Leela Sinha: 53:25

Right. Right. I'm trying to remember who it was who said, If you get a seat at the table, prop the door open and tell everyone else to shove over. I think it was Donna Brazile, I think she was this was a few years ago in a in a political campaign conversation. But she was like, you can't just not, right? If you really want to make change, you need to have power. And then you need to leverage that power to make the changes you want to have. But in order to do that, you have to not hate having power. You need to be okay with having power. And I think the thing that we drop most often, I think the thing that we drop most often is that we need that we need to have colleagues. This is something that I actually bring I'm I'm ordained in the Unitarian Universalist tradition. And this is something that I actually bring from my clergy experience when we meet regularly with colleagues to stay accountable to each other. We have to stay accountable to each other. And so what we do to stay accountable to each other is we keep meeting. We keep meeting together with one another. So it's ministers meeting with ministers, clergy, meeting with clergy, its religious, other religious leaders meeting with other religious leaders. So that so that we have somebody to call us out who is having that same experience, right? Who is in that same leadership role? Right. And, and so I think that we need this and I'm, I'm working on it, I have, I have an organization. My company is called the Intensives Institute, and I have a membership system that I've started, that hasn't really come into its fullness yet. But the goal is to bring leaders together. So that we can talk together so that we can hold each other accountable together. So that we can wrestle the problems together of having power of being in charge under capitalism, of of wanting to have that collective voice and also recognizing that sometimes you are the person where the buck stops. And how do you do that well. Because I don't ever want people to feel like they're so alone, that they have to make all of that journey by themselves.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 56:04

Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like a wonderful community.

Leela Sinha: 56:13

It will be if I can get people to recognize that they need it.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 56:18

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 56:19

Because I think we have this ideal of the, you know, solo leader out there on the, you know, on the parapet by themself with the, with the, you know, staff standing silhouetted against the sunset. And that's a lovely image. But no, it's actually terrible. Let's not do that to each other.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 56:38

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 56:40

So. So when you think about the changes you want to make in academia, in yourself, in the people you work with, what are like the three core pieces of that?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 56:57

the change that I want to make in academia, is a shift from Doing, to Being. Because for decades now, there have been so many initiatives to change policies and, you know, recruit more marginalized people, etc. But when those policies, and those changes, and those actions are made on a shaky foundation, and the people that make up a culture, haven't done the internal work to make sure that those policies actually become part of the culture, then there is no sustainability in those changes. We saw that with the murder of George Floyd. There was so much momentum from that movement. And a couple of years later, where did all of that energy go? Did anything really change? And I would argue that in academic spaces, it hasn't really. I'm still seeing the same things that I saw when I was a graduate student, you know, eight years ago. So what I am working toward is a radical shift. And what I do is, I come into a space, an organization. And we start by bringing awareness to the systemic issues, right, we recognize what the system is the societal things that are happening. And then we zoom into the organization as a microcosm of that society where that where those values are getting perpetuated, right? And then we zoom in to the individuals, and how we are complicit in perpetuating those values. And how we are agents of capitalism and homophobia and ableism and racism. And we unpack that together, and we unlearn it. And that is the foundation upon which those actions can actually have teeth.

Leela Sinha: 59:26

I'm not going to ask you to answer this here. But I saw recently an essay contest go by on substack where the woman sponsoring the essay contest said okay, the year is 2050 and we saved the world. How did we do it? Start with what you did. And I signed up for her substack right away because I feel like that's such an important question to be asking, especially with the world, literally and figuratively on fire in so many ways. And in some ways, you know, you start with this systemic and then you get down and you get down and you get down to that and you're like, okay, because once you know how you're complicit, then you have a piece that you can change, that's you-sized.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:00:28

Exactly, exactly. That's what my work is based on. And it starts literally, with me doing that internal work, and then showing others how they might come to that place also of understanding and self awareness. And it's like, that's the first step. You know. I recently started playing Breath of the Wild, I haven't played video games in many years. And my brother is a video game, like, professional pretty much. And the first day, I played for 12 hours without stopping. And he came over. And he was like, Oh, you're still in the, in the tutorial part of the game. And I said, What? And he was like, Yeah, you have you don't even have your paraglider yet you can't go anywhere. Like you're this part is literally just to teach you how to use weapons. How do you like collect items, how to make things like, this is just- you haven't started the game yet. And I was so upset, because I was like, What do you mean, but I feel like this is this is the work that I did, myself that I do continually, right is like, peering inside myself. Shining a light on the all the places that are, that feel so scary. And confronting them, and loving them, and transforming myself and then showing others how to do that. So that you can get out of tutorial level and actually start the game.

Leela Sinha: 1:02:23

Yeah, and I feel like it's not as clean as in a video game, because of course it isn't. But I feel like it's, it's, sometimes you're at that, like, you're, you're in the tutorial at some in some parts of your life. And in other parts of your life, you're already, you know, three stages into the actual game. And holding that tension, that identity tension can sometimes be really difficult. To be like, Yes, I'm a beginner over here. And yes, I'm an advanced, you know, intermediate over there.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:02:54

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 1:02:55

And, and I can be both and it's okay to be both. I think here we're running into white colonialism again. Right? It's okay to be both. It's okay to be not perfectly evenly advanced. We can we can hold this whole thing at once. And, and when we do it complexifies our power relationships in ways that I think are mostly really productive.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:03:23

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 1:03:26

Because we attach, especially in white academia, we attach knowingness, knowing information, acquisition to power.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:03:38

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 1:03:40

And so if we're able to hold simultaneously knowing and not knowing, simultaneously being so-called advanced and not, then we are also holding, having power here and not there, and you having power in a different place than I do. And then we become this net, rather than this striated structure. Even if, when it's time to, I don't know, do leather work, I'm taking a back seat. I bought my first piece of leather to work with like yesterday. And yet, if it's time to talk about like brains and trauma, I'm not taking a back seat. I've been studying this stuff for years.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:04:25

Right? Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 1:04:27

And so I can follow and I can take whatever leadership I have in the community and use it to get other people to follow.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:04:36

Yeah,

Leela Sinha: 1:04:37

Because if I follow other people will follow too. Sometimes the most powerful thing a leader can do is say, I don't need to be in charge of this. Somebody else can be in charge. I'm just gonna follow.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:04:47

Yeah.

Leela Sinha: 1:04:48

ecause they bring other people with them and they bring the trust with them. And then and then the the situation shifts, and I am the leader and somebody else says, I don't need to fight you for leadership. I'll just follow like, why should we waste our energy?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:05:07

Yeah, absolutely.

Leela Sinha: 1:05:10

So I'm, I'm really interested in getting to a point, societally and socially, where we can have these more complex power relationships, so that we can have leadership and followership and we can move those pieces around. And yet not have to always be striving to be an expert in everything. Because that striving is also exhausting. And we don't have to be in charge everywhere.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:05:36

Period.

Leela Sinha: 1:05:45

Well, this has been a delightful conversation. We are at the end of our time, if people wanted to find you find your stuff connect in some way, how would they do that?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:05:57

Well, so many ways, so we have an Instagram account. So if you have Instagram, we do share a lot on there. And that is at move boldly, @moveboldly . I also have a podcast myself called the daily radical where we talk about social justice issues within the context of higher ed, stem, sometimes but sometimes not sometimes just general. I am on Twitter, at Jazztronomy. So @jazztronomy. And I'm also on Linked In as Dra. Nicole. So lots lots of ways to connect. Oh, and I should mention my website. So it's, https://www.wearemvmt.com/ I don't think I mentioned this my company's name is Movement Consulting. And we are wearemvmt.com/

Leela Sinha: 1:07:09

Excellent. And do you have a preference as to how people reach you for particular things? Or just anywhere for anything?

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:07:17

That's a good question. I guess if it's a professional connection, you know, LinkedIn if you if you like conversational, Twitter, Instagram for more sort of current, like events type stuff. Excellent.

Leela Sinha: 1:07:35

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your experience and your story. I know I have listeners who are going to resonate with a lot of the things you talked about. You are not alone. You are 100% not alone. It has been an absolute pleasure. Such a pleasure to have you here and I look forward to staying connected.

ctora Nicole Cabrera Salazar: 1:07:58

Yes, thank you so much. I really deeply appreciate it.

Leela Sinha: 1:08:02

Take care.